Is Darren Rowse A Leader Or Follower ?
Back on April 10th Chris Pearson over at Pearsonified started The Indie Virus.
On April 26th, I read a post about Blog Tipping written by Liz Stauss, that gave props to a post written by Easton Ellsworth about Blog Tipping.
It harkened me back to a post I wrote 9 days before that where I called out an A-lister who would not use a link, Trackback or Ping.
On April 26th I claimed Link Leak as my own, defined Link Leak and gave full credit to the Indie Virus before me and to those who had been Blog Tipping before me. I then started the Link Leak Virus on May 4th.
During this whole time, I gave full credit where it was due. I’ve never been afraid to link out, give credit or try to help any blogger out there.
There are several out there whose blogs have been built by my staff, several who have had us troubleshoot their problems, we host a few on our own servers, we have done design and Photoshop work for several, etc. Never have we turned down anyone who needed help. I might be handcuffed after today, though, as I shook hands on a deal to be the blogger for a local company. It’s a 5 figure deal and I’ve been telling you guys to do more of this and not try to write for AdSense. Advertising and corporate dollars are WAY BIGGER !
Now to my problem. The post that precedes all of this is the one on April 17th about, ” How Much For A Link, Trackback or Ping ? ”
This post is about one particular A-Lister. He has since changed his way for the better and is now known to do a WHOLE POST about someone elses post. That is blogging like it’s supposed to be done.
Now we have another A-Lister who has followed the dark path. Darren Rowse has not participated in any of the above mentioned blogging promotion operations.
I emailed him and asked for some help with the Link Leak Virus, without a response.
I’m sure he saw The Indie Virus.
I’ll bet he saw Liz blog tipping. Maybe he saw Easton, too.
I was, repeat was, linked to ProBlogger on several of my 13 blogs. No More. I have removed them all. For now and maybe forever.
Why ?
Because today he has a cute little pink button on his post titled Link Lust. See there, I even linked to a post that made me pissed.
Why am I pissed ?
Is he not entitled to blatantly copy all of our previous hard work without even a hint of props ? Sure he is.
There are no new ideas. Just new implemetations of old ideas.
Read that again and remember it forever. Especially here in the blogosphere.
What could he have done differently ?
He could have said after reading all about our Link Leaks, Blog Tipping ( which is where he got the three links thang in his post ) and Link Leak Virus that he had decide to jump on the bandwagon and do a little himself.
But he didn’t. He was selfish. He was a link hoarder, at least for that moment.
He didn’t repay all the Trackbacks I’ve left for him. Nor the Pings. Nor the good things I’ve said, like, ” Darren Rowse and ProBlogger is one of the reasons I blog. One of the two or three most influential people I’ve read. “
He chose to shun us, to diss us and to be selfish. I’m choosing to call him out.
I don’t expect to win. I don’t expect him to reply. I fully expect all the Rowse-ettes to flame me and say I’m link baiting, a term I only learned in the last couple of days, as someone said that’s why I started the Link Leak Virus. Bull, is all I can say. I’ve gotten jack squat out of it…except for the knowledge that several bloggers have been linked to that would have never seen the light of link day before those 3 projects were implemented.
There’s only one or two good things that can come out of this.
1) Darren will say, ” I was lost, but now am found. Was blind, but now I see. ”
2) All those who hate A-Listers will jump on my bandwagon and I’ll get beaucoup links and several thousand new readers. New readers who I will entertain and educate with my witty posts and simple logic. That’s a joke, son. Props to Foghorn Leghorn.
The bad things that may happen ?
Don’t know. Don’t care. Maybe he won’t ever link to me. Hasn’t yet, so what’s the loss.
{ 27 comments… read them below or add one }
You have to be willing to allow your readers to be set free and not care as to whether they come back or not.
Well, at least that is what you said in your definition blog post .. It just seems to me that you are comparing apples and oranges.
Link Leak Virus is giving readers links to great sites, isn’t it? Darren’s Link Lust is asking readers to beg for links. I was just in the middle of another ‘leaking’ post when I noticed your entry here.
It’s like when you sided with Technorati view against ME when they practically called me a splogger on Liz’s file - you read what you want - and it shows. I’ll still continue the Link Leak Virus Project - because it’s still a good idea.
HART,
Do you not speak English as your first language or do you just not catch on ? Kinda like when David Sifry, not me, called your stuff splogs.
What I said was that blogs have a voice and are done by a person. Splogs are scraped, borrowed or stolen content with no originality, no voice and no real value.
Whether that’s yours or anyone elses, it’s still true.
You’re not even close on this. Technorati’s view was their own. They have parameters and they get to set them, cause it’s their toy.
My issue, in the post, is not that he doesn’t link, it’s that we all gave the proper credit and he didn’t credit anybody and it’s painfully obvious where he got that idea.
It’s that he didn’t join in any of our reindeer games, it’s that he chose to be selfish.
If people have to beg for links, ( your words, not mine ), that’s even worse.
BTW - it’s near midnite here…I’ll be gone tomorrow after 5AM and back around mid-afternoon. I’ll be gald to continue this then, but will not be answering anymore for a few hours of sleep. 4 or 5 at most.
If people have to beg for links, ( your words, not mine ), that’s even worse.
I am in agreement there .. I posted links to my own blog on his entry haha..
Maybe Darren was just oblivious to what we’ve been doing with Link Leak and BlogTipping. If so, then he hasn’t really got his finger on the pulse of what’s happening around him. That’s a shame - more so that you emailed him prior.
or … he knows fully well what’s going on and went his way without giving credit. Not that it’s required, but it’s a shame he didn’t get involved - would have given it a bigger boost, he’d get more fans because of it and we’d all benefit and so on…
Generally speaking this is how A-List types are - getting a link from them is like trying to get blood from a stone at times. But so be it.
But at the end of the day, who cares Mike - he doesn’t want to join in then that’s his lost.
A hundred link leakers linking with gay abandon is much better in the long term than one A-List blog.
I love the freedom of simply linking out without a second thought. It frees you up so much. You start writing only for your readers pleasure without worrying about whether they’ll leave at the first link. In the end it all comes back to you. Just got to brand your blog strongly so folks remember you.
I’m not sure what’s going on, but I do want you to know I’m following this conversation closely. Giving Darren Rowse the benefit of the doubt, he is extremely busy and so he might not have seen your link-spreading ideas. I do agree that it’s important to openly recognize and acknowledge the influence of others’ ideas on one’s own. I think I’ll go comment at Problogger on that post on link lust and we’ll see what happens.
you might find this post interesting.
Does Link Love Causes spam blogging
Martin - if Darren didn’t see ANY of that, I’d be more than surprised, I’d be bloggergasted !
He knew, he saw, he chose not to give any credit.
You’re right that it wasn’t required and you’re right that it’s not our loss, but his.
I also should say I wrote this post for the same reason I wrote the very first post that started all this… I wrote this for me and so I’d get it out of my system and be able to sleep.
Thanks for listening.
Easton,
I’d also be bloggergasted if darren’s any busier than you or I.
I worked 10 hours at an offline business yesterday. Came home.Wrote several posts for our network. Fixed several things broken at home.
Researched a matter for another offline business and went to bed at 12:30 am, a full 18 1/2 hours after I had gotten up. Got up at 4:30 after 4 hours in bed, drove to a meeting 1 1/2 hours away and will get done tonite at midnite again.
None of that kept me from crediting or linking to any post I needed to give props to.
Hey Mike,
I also E-mailed Darren re: LLV back before I infected my first patient. I didn’t expect a response, but I never expected this.
Joe
Hi Mike,
I’m really sorry you feel that this was a rip off of your idea.
In reality I’ve been doing this type of thing (as have other bloggers) for three year.
The first time I did something like it I called for people to nominate southern hemisphere bloggers (http://www.livingroom.org.au/blog/archives/the_great_south_blog_hunt_round_1.php), one of the other popular times I did it it was called ‘Celebrating the Underblogger’ (actually I did that three years in a row - http://www.livingroom.org.au/blog/archives/celebrating_the_underblog_2004.php, http://www.problogger.net/archives/2005/03/03/2005-business-underblogger-awards/).
Another time I’ve done things similar it was called Blog Crushes:
http://www.problogger.net/archives/2005/09/14/blog-crush/
http://www.problogger.net/archives/2005/09/16/blog-crushes-revealed-round-1/
http://www.problogger.net/archives/2005/09/19/blog-crushes-revealed-round-2/
I could go on. I guess all I’m saying is that people have been asking people to suggest good blogs to them for years and yesterday when on the spur of the moment I asked my readers to simply tell me which blogs they wanted a link from I was just doing what I do.
Quite honestly as I posted the post my motivation was no to rip anyone off. In actual fact, if my memory serves me correctly, the idea came over my morning coffee as I reflected upon my last 48 hours of blogging when I’d had links from lifehacker, delicious’s popluar page and digg and wondering if I had to choose between them which I’d have taken.
As I thought about this I asked myself the question ‘what site’s links are most useful in building a blog?’ The leap to asking the question of ProBlogger readers wasn’t big (took about 60 seconds to post). I didn’t intend the post to become a meme or big project - it was just a question and something that I threw out there.
Yep I had emails from yourself and one or two other bloggers telling me about your LLV project. I also get hundreds of other emails every day from bloggers, many of which are asking me to link to something they’ve written, a product they’ve developed or some meme that they’are starting. I’d estimate I link to about 5% of what I’m asked to and wish I could do more without it taking over ProBlogger. Due to the weight of numbers I need to quickly scan through what I think is appropriate or not for ProBlogger each day. I quite often feel terrible that I can’t link to all of the good things that are happening around the blogosphere but thats my situation at present.
I genuinely am sorry if you’re angry at my actions and think that they make me a bad person but if I were to link to every blogger who’s ever done a meme like the ones we’ve done I’d end up with a massive list.
I do think that ProBlogger speaks for itself on giving credit to my sources of ideas. I regularly link out to blogs of all shapes and sizes. If someone’s idea sparks a stream of thought or idea for me I go out of my way to link up.
When it comes to not acknowledging trackbacks or your very kind words I do apologise. I get very frustrated that I can’t follow all the things that are written about me or respond to them all. The reality is that I get a lot of trackbacks and a lot of people say a lot of things about me. I’m managing 10 or so of my own active blogs, attempting to play a part in administering a company with 120 other blogs and most days I am barely clearing my inbox let alone acknowledging every trackback or post written about me. I often wish there were two or three of me to help with this stuff but the reality is that I’m already working 12 hour days and am just doing what I can.
I’m not sure if any of this makes much sense or whether it’s valid (It’s 7.30am here and I literally rolled out of bed 5 minutes before I saw your post after a reader IM’d me about it) but it’s a genuine attempt to shed some light on the realities of my blogging process and pressures that led me to blog as I have.
Again - I apologise for anyone who feels offended by my lack of linking to their project but stand by the motivations and influences that I’ve outlined above.
More than willing to dialogue more on it and clarrify anything that doesn’t make sense in this pre-coffee ramble.
Hi Darren,
Thanks for coming by. First thought is..I’m not mad, I’m disappointed. Not just by you, but by all those that have achieved what you have and forgotten what got them there - Links, Comments, Pings, Trackbacks…readers ?
Remember, you have what you have but by the Grace of God, not of your own volition. So don’t think to much of any accomplishement, lest ye fall.
I’m not a six figure blogger, but with yesterday’s agreement, I’m well into five figures, and hold a full-time sales/consulting job, and coach/help bloggers and run a network of blogs and etc. I’d love to only have 12 hour days. Mine go around 16-18. Not complaining, mind you, I could stop any of it I wanted to shed.
Here’s the rub - You knew we were doing all we could do to help all the little guys out there.
You chose to ignore us. That’s your right.
You have linked to a million blogs in your day. It would be hard have a blog like ProBlogger and not link out.
You could have thrown some props our way and given a little help. Notice I said could, not should.
If you had not used the term Link Lust, which is damn close to Link Leak and Link Leak Virus, it would not have seemed so ” in your face “.
You chose that name, you chose the number of three links, which is damn close to what had been the number used for blog tipping. Again, ” in your face “.
If you had given some props to, linked to or acknowledged the memes going on ( and you knew about them ), then it would not have been so bad.
When I coined Link Leak and Link Leak Virus, I gave props to Blog Tipping, even though I may have been first.
It ain’t that hard to say, ” I saw this and it made me Lust for Links, so I’m gonna…”
I know about the Blog Crushes thing. I posted about it. Linked to it. Tracked it back, probably.
Props, my blog friend, Props.
Im glad you came by. I’m honored by your visit.
I’m glad you acknowledge that several of us emailed you and you knew.
That says that you chose, right or wrong, to not acknowledge our efforts. That’s excuseable and forgivable. It’s your blog and your right.
Afterall, there are no new ideas, just new implementations.
The court of the blogosphere will decide whether or not they think badly, not me.
I’m over it and willing to say I accept your statement. Doesn’t feel like an apology, just like a clarification.
Whether or not you agree with our feelings, we feel slighted.
As for the bad person thang…of course not. That has nothing to do with your personage.
It was a choice, a decision. Poor one from my view, but maybe not from the view the blogosphere takes.
You’ve certainly got a bigger, more loyal following than I ever even want. So my chance of winning in the court of popular opinion is between slim and none..and I saw slim at the train station on the way home.
I’ll leave it to the populace. If they are hurt by your deliberate choices, they’ll say so here in the comments.
If they think I’m a jackass, ( stay out of this HART !
), they’ll tell me so here in the comments.
Either way, the public’s memory is short and skewed.
As for our bloggy relationship, I’m not angry, I don’t think you’re bad.
I’m not gonna put my link to you back on my blogs as of yet, but that won’t matter to you.
Feel free to clarify any of what I’ve misquoted and/or skewed my way. You are always welcome here.
Ok - without this becoming bigger than it needs to be let me respond to a few things you’ve said:
I’m not mad, I’m disappointed.
My impression reading your post was that there was both anger and disappointment. You said you were ‘pissed’ which could either mean you were drunk (is that just an Aussie term?) or ‘pissed off’ which to me means anger. Perhaps your anger was more generally at ‘those that have achieved and have forgotten what got them there’ but it did feel like your attention was on me and not a ‘general thing’.
Believe me - I’ve not forgotten what got me to the point I’m at. As I’ve said in my previous comment - I go out of my way to link to and feature bloggers of all levels. I allowed 15 or so small to medium bloggers to guest blog on my blog last time I went away for two weeks despite having the opportunity to go for ‘big names’ - mainly because I wanted to showcase what normal bloggers are doing.
“Remember, you have what you have but by the Grace of God, not of your own volition. So don’t think to much of any accomplishement, lest ye fall.”
Every day I wonder how I got to live the life I lead. I never take it for granted and while I work hard I know I’m a very lucky guy.
If you had not used the term Link Lust, which is damn close to Link Leak and Link Leak Virus, it would not have seemed so ” in your face “. You chose that name, you chose the number of three links, which is damn close to what had been the number used for blog tipping. Again, ” in your face “.
Again - the post was a spur of the moment one and something I didn’t give a whole heap of thought to. Your ‘Link Leak’ project did not enter my mind at all in the 60 seconds it took me to think of and write the post. Perhaps I should have asked myself the questions ‘who else has done something like this lately?’ before posting but I did not.
If you had given some props to, linked to or acknowledged the memes going on ( and you knew about them ), then it would not have been so bad. When I coined Link Leak and Link Leak Virus, I gave props to Blog Tipping, even though I may have been first. It ain’t that hard to say, ” I saw this and it made me Lust for Links, so I’m gonna…”
My approach to giving credit to others for inspiration is simple:
If I’m inspired by someone else’s work I give credit - if their work doesn’t come to mind as I come up with a post I don’t think I can be expected to link to them. I didn’t think about ‘Link Leak’ in connection to ‘Link Lust’ before, during or after I posted (until a couple of hours ago when I read your post above).
I’m over it and willing to say I accept your statement. Doesn’t feel like an apology, just like a clarification.
I don’t apologize for blogging the way I blogged - I don’t feel I did anything wrong. I am sorry that you (and others) were hurt by this. I do not enjoy hurting (disappointing) people either purposely (not the case here) or indirectly through circumstances.
Having said all this - I’m happy to link to your project and BlogTipping from the post in question as an update. I’ve just done this as a show of good will and because I do believe in the idea of bloggers linking to one another - it’s what blogging is all about.
Thanks for being willing to talk this one through. Hopefully some good comes out of it as we all understand each other a little more.
Darren
sorry about not closing off bold tags there at one point.
Mike,
I don’t want to get into the full argument here but I will say this, it’s not a matter of “ignoring” anyone but a matter of being able to take it all in. When I wrote The Blog Herald some days I’d get 100’s of emails with story leads, link swap requests, and other stuff. As it was I’ve still got a Bloglines account full of subs. There are many great blogs out there, but no one human can possibly follow or read them all, and as much as I know Darren would like to be able to keep up (as I would) it’s just not always possible. You shouldn’t take it personally. I’ve been reading your site for some time because I enjoy your mix of content, but I don’t always get to it every day, I physically can’t, and I’ve always been tight on what I read so I can manage it better. The key to being read by Darren or anyone is to keep up the good work and eventually people will come around.
Hi again Darren,
Let’s hope this is nearing the end.
Pissed definitely means mad. If I was, I’m not now. The 4 hours of sleep must have helped.
The pissyness must have been due to a build up of feelings of disappointment at a series of events in the hoard-o-sphere.
Your actions, which seemed to be ” in your face “, were the last straw for my poor blogging back, mouth and fingers.
I accept you saying they were not malicious actions. I hope everyone who reads this hears this fact - I don’t think Darren has a malicious bone in his body. Finis.
I don’t think I ever asked for an apology…if I did, I was out of my gourd from lack of sleep.
If you don’t feel the need, I don’t need the feel !
The mere fact that “link leak” and “link leak virus” didn’t come to your mind, as you wrote the “Link Lust” post and used the number three, (which someone just emailed me and said I chose as an honor to my three daughters and how good things come in threes) is a sign that it was undoubtedly an unconscience thang, not a malicious thang.
Either that or I’m just way too insignificant to even be remembered. Even after at least 3 emails by different people about those very words. Maybe some day. Maybe. I’ll keep pluggin’.
Everyone else saw it right away, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, as you’ve earned that thru the years of goodwill you’ve built up in the blogosphere.
As for the links that are up now, that’s nice and we appreciate it. It would have been better had they been there before the thousands of readers went thru there, but it’s still a gracious gesture. I’m honored.
I’m delighted that you and I have maintained some semblance of civility, professionalism and maturity. You moreso than I. I’ll get better, pray for me.
Again, if I’ve misinterpreted or misrepresented anything you said, implied or clarified, I’ll be here for another 3 hours to allow you to respond and to make myself clear.
After that, I’m done with this and I hope we can one day work together to promote a theme, topic, event, etc.
Your professionalism is a model for all those who disagree about all these things that won’t matter even a trifling in eternity.
Hi Duncan,
Glad you dropped by and I appreciate your opinion and view from a somewhat similar circumstance as Darren’s.
I also appreciate the time it took to comment, knowing that I might have to comment, then you’d have to clarify, etc.
In case you didn’t catch a typical day for me, please go back and re-read that comment.
I can say without fear of reprisal, I’m just as busy and have just as much to take in and just as many emails, IM’s and such. we have 13 blogs and over 30 other sites.
There’s more to life than blogging and I enjoy it to the fullest.
Darren admitted he saw several, 3 at least, emails. He chose not to go any further with them. That may not be ignoring, but it is fact. It doesn’t make him bad, it just wasn’t what was best for his blog at that moment. That is just circumstance.
I’ll say again - That’s his right. It’s his blog.
It’s also worked out okay, as it united a few bloggers and made them work harder to spread the word.
It may have been the best thing that could have happened to us.
But I should get the right to say, ” Hey, if you can’t join us, don’t copy us.” - whether he was copying will be a matter that I hope won’t be debated much longer.
Was it a blatant copy, some say yes and some say maybe. Darren says no. Since it was his sction, we have to accept his word. I’m willing to do that.
I appreciate you kind words about my blog and it’s entertainment value.
I’m willing to let this end. We’ve all said repeatedly how busy we are and to debate something that no one can ever prove (unless I find a way to put that usb port in my head to download my thought processes).
I’m not sure I got 3 emails, 2 emails, 4 emails or whatever. I do remember getting at least one and I do remember thinking that it wasn’t something that fitted with the rhythm of ProBlogger that day (I try to limit numbers of types of posts - get the mix right). After that I promptly forgot about it.
I guess all I’d say is that I encourage all bloggers to think about linking up where they can, to acknowledge sources but not to be too precious about owning ideas that in the scheme of things are not particularly new.
Anyway - I’m yet to get past my second post of the day (its almost midday here) and I need to get on with business.
Works for me.
I’ve said repeatedly that it’s your blog and your business.
You could even be blatant and ugly if you chose. I’m glad you didn’t.
To all those out there who ever need a model as to how to handle themselves when someone disagrees with them, please remember this -
Darren and I have not resorted to name calling, ugly adjectives, profane words,etc.
Nor have we gone into sheer attack mode.
Please try to handle your difference with dignity, respect, room for the other persons opinion and forgiveness.
Darren’s been a model to follow and I wasn’t too bad. I could do a lot better and he could do a teeny bit better.
We both wanted to sneak in that jab here ( like that owning ideas thang ) and there and we both tried to persuade without being blatant. I did my share of jabbing, too, in case y’all missed it.
In the end, we both said ” Peace “.
PS - I’m 6′2 and 250 LBS… I’ve never been “precious” in my life ! That, my friend, was sweet !
uff… glad that ended in peace. Thats what we expect from you big guys(as in blog-values). glad to see that it all ended without any blood bath and you got the credit for your link leaks. I wish I could drop some link leak virus but as long as my blog doesn’t come clear of “link spamming” i don’t want to risk it. good luck with ur project.
jack
Very inspiring. It’s great to see passionate bloggers.
Chad
Mike,
If it helps any, I’m an avid ProBlogger reader as you know, and I didn’t get to that post until Darren had already updated it
In fact, that’s basically how I got here.
Of course, Darren’s done more for me than any other blogger I can name, so I am admittedly biased, but I’m happy to see you guys got this worked out.
You’re two of my favorite bloggers, and it would be a real bummer if you were having some kind of JOAB-style feud.
Bless you, my man. And say Hi to Joi!
Hey Cary -
No feuds here. I’m glad neither one of us is silly enough to resort to less-than-admirable- actions.
I was too close as it was. Darren’s professionalism was never in doubt. Class act, in that regard, all the way.
Joi says Hi ! and I say read me FIRST next time
I think that I am the one that you are talking about when you say that someone said that you started the link leak virus as some form of link bait.
Just to be clear, I wasn’t accusing you of anything and, in fact, clearly state that you may not have intended the virus to be a link bait and that even if you did, it was a great idea.
Hey Robb,
I read over 100 feeds per day and this thing has caused me to read even more, moderate a lot of comments and generated a ton of email.
I have no earthly idea where I read that and did not mean to sound like I felt accused. I probably felt like they didn’t know whether or not I was smart enough to premeditate the who thing…which I ain’t ! ;=)
I do remember having to look up the term link bait after I read whatever post it was, ’cause I had no idea what it was. That’s sad in and of itself, ain’t it.
I have no ill feelings for whoever it was and especially if it was you, since you are a fine blogger and aren’t the type to try and start a silly bunch-o-crap.
Thanks for coming by, thanks for clarifying and sorry if I made it sound like I was feeling less than special towards your words.
No probs here my friend !
I’ve learned a lot from reading this conversation. Good for everyone that you’ve all been cordial.
[...] One: Like any sort of outbound linking, a small number of bloggers you don’t link to will feel slighted (only in the spur of the moment in this example). Two: Your read [...]
Leave a Comment